Discussion:
'Imagine no religion,' says atheists' display
(too old to reply)
Bob Officer
2007-12-10 21:51:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:07:03 -0500, in alt.abortion, "J Young"
This is an absolute disgrace. If people wish to hold atheist beliefs, they
should learn to keep it to themselves. No one should invoke their values
upon others.
The highest form of hypocrisy known to man. J. Young
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59111 HOLIDAY
BLUES
'Imagine no religion,' says atheists' display
Residents irked by city-approved sign in public park blaming faith for 9/11
Posted: December 9, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
Connecticut atheists, taking advantage of a town's policy of allowing
holiday-season displays in its public park, have erected a 10-foot tall sign
in celebration of the winter solstice that includes a message blaming the
attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, on religious believers.
The 3-sided sign was erected in the Town of Vernon's Central Park on Dec. 1
by the Connecticut Valley Atheists. The two sides facing Main Street feature
a pre-attack image of the Twin Towers with the sun shining between them and
the message, "Imagine no religion," drawn from the John Lennon anthem,
"Imagine."
Use of the image is meant to say the Twin Towers would still be standing
were it not for religion, CVA coordinator Dennis Himes told the Hartford
Courant.
The goal is to "simply emphasize an advantage of atheism, something good
about atheism," Himes said. "Al-Qaida is not a terrorist organization that
happens to be religious, it is a terrorist organization that is inspired by
its religious beliefs."
The third side of the sign faces town hall with a message about the winter
"In late December the sun is lower and days are shorter than any time of
year. Throughout the rest of winter the sun gets higher and the days get
longer. Because of this people have celebrated the winter solstice from time
immemorial. People used to believe that gods moved the sun across the sky.
Today we know that there are no gods, and that the sun moves by natural
causes, and we celebrate not only the movement of the sun but our ability to
understand that movement."
"We would prefer no displays promoting theological worldviews be displayed
at all, but as long as they are we thank the Town of Vernon for permitting
atheists equal access," the group says on its website.
"The town marked off three spots in the park," Himes said. "The notice to
groups said first come, first served, so we picked the one right in front of
town hall. We fully expected the other displays to be up around the same
time we put ours up."
While the town issued permits to a local synagogue for a menorah display and
to a group of churches that plan to place a creche in the park, the atheists
were the first to erect their display - indeed, as of the weekend, theirs
remained the only display except for a large Christmas tree Mayor Jason L.
McCoy had a town crew erect 10 feet from the atheists' sign.
McCoy rejected suggestions placement of the tree is meant to obstruct views
of the atheists' display. When told that it did, in fact, obstruct the view,
McCoy responded to the Courant, "Oh, really - that's unfortunate."
McCoy and other town officials have been fielding complaint calls for a week
from residents angry at the group's suggestion their religion was
responsible for 9/11.
"People are not offended the atheists have something up there, and they're
not offended by whatever they celebrate. What they're troubled by is they
feel [their] religion is equated with being involved in terrorism," McCoy
said.
Officials also said the tone of the atheists' display appeared to be more
political and not consistent with the description given on their permit
application of a "triangular stand displaying information about the winter
solstice, atheism and human light observance."
Himes insists the town made the issue political when it decided to allow
religious displays on public property.
"The original question was whether Vernon would have a nativity scene on
church property or town property," Himes said. "The difference between those
two is a political difference."
For generations, Vernon has displayed its circa-World War II creche in the
park, but it was moved to St. Bernard Church last year after Hines
complained, saying the town was violating the separation of church and
state.
Republican town committee members passed a unanimous resolution calling for
the creche to be returned to its traditional location in the park in 2007. A
new policy, crafted last August, grants equal space for any group wanting to
set up traditional displays or symbolic messages during the month of
December.
Sandi LaChapelle, owner of Russ' Time Rock 'n' Roll Diner, told the Courant
visitors to her business have been commenting on the photo of the sun
streaming between the Twin Towers.
"The sun forms a cross," she said.
"That certainly wasn't intentional," Himes said.
--
Ak'toh'di
Bob Officer
2007-12-10 21:59:14 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 11:32:19 -0600, in alt.abortion, "Mark K. Bilbo"
This is an absolute disgrace. If people wish to hold atheist
beliefs, they should learn to keep it to themselves. No one should
invoke their
values upon others.
And yet here you are shoving your religious crap into alt.atheism.
You fucking hypocrite.
That's a lie. I do quote His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, but only in
matters
of moral issues. I have *never* tried to convert or convince anyone
to become a Christian.
You are a fucking worthless windbag. May you choke on something silly
and die of asphyxiation.
That means "suffocating", little boy.
It's when you can't breathe.
It makes you die.
Jeez, insulting morons is hard.
"Imagine no religion." is not forcing atheism down people's throats.
It's a line from a John Lennon song you're probably too fucked up to
remember.
We can't force our beliefs down others' throats, anyway, we don't
*have* any!
Yes you do.
Cute. Such as? (Don't come with the typical religious freaks' "So you
don't play paino? It means that your hobby is "not playing" piano.)
Belief that no god(s) exist.
What belief?
No, atheism is this. The theist says, "God exists!". The atheist replies,
"I don't believe you."
And it's this that upsets theists. The part about not believing *them*.
Hey Mark...

I am a Rockist

This rock exists, I hand you a rock of your own.

Now you can be a rock believer or arockist

No theist can do that.
--
Ak'toh'di
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2007-12-10 22:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Officer
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:07:03 -0500, in alt.abortion, "J Young"
This is an absolute disgrace. If people wish to hold atheist beliefs, they
should learn to keep it to themselves. No one should invoke their values
upon others.
The highest form of hypocrisy known to man. J. Young
on the other hand the sign is wrong
and to piss people off just piss people off
is not the brightest poltical move for a minority

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Archie Leach
2007-12-10 22:21:13 UTC
Permalink
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Bob Officer
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:07:03 -0500, in alt.abortion, "J Young"
This is an absolute disgrace. If people wish to hold atheist beliefs, they
should learn to keep it to themselves. No one should invoke their values
upon others.
The highest form of hypocrisy known to man. J. Young
on the other hand the sign is wrong
and to piss people off just piss people off
is not the brightest poltical move for a minority
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
<rant>

Some atheists (the CVA certainly included) conveniently forget about
the USSR and China (and hell let's throw Pol Pot and Cambodia into the
mix) when spouting about the supposed relative peacefulness of
"atheism".

Communism/Marxism is by definition atheistic. You cannot seperate
atheism from Marxism.

Hey, if you want to make a philosophical stand that God does not
exist, then go ahead.

If you want to declare that Jesus Christ never existed and was a myth,
then I don't agree with that but it's not really my business.
Besides, Christianity has those who would make Jesus a myth--see the
Episcopal Bishop Spong.

If you want to claim that theism is strictly responsible for tragedies
and murders and mayhem and that atheism is the doctrine of ultimate
peace, then you are FULL. OF. SHIT.

Plain and simple.

Besides, it appears the Colorado church shooter was an
atheist--insofar as he had an obsessive hatred toward Christians.


</rant>
LC
2007-12-10 23:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archie Leach
Besides, it appears the Colorado church shooter was an
atheist--insofar as he had an obsessive hatred toward Christians.
Uh, no,
Actually, it appears he was just another jilted fundy with an axe to grind:

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The gunman believed to have killed four people at
a megachurch and a missionary training school had been thrown out of the
school about three years ago and had been sending hate mail to the program,
police said in court papers Monday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings
Archie Leach
2007-12-10 23:11:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by LC
Post by Archie Leach
Besides, it appears the Colorado church shooter was an
atheist--insofar as he had an obsessive hatred toward Christians.
Uh, no,
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The gunman believed to have killed four people at
a megachurch and a missionary training school had been thrown out of the
school about three years ago and had been sending hate mail to the program,
police said in court papers Monday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings
I stand corrected on that point.

But the larger point remains: Atheism has no ground to stand on if it
tries to justify itself as a doctrine of unquestionable Peace.
LC
2007-12-10 23:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archie Leach
Post by LC
Post by Archie Leach
Besides, it appears the Colorado church shooter was an
atheist--insofar as he had an obsessive hatred toward Christians.
Uh, no,
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The gunman believed to have killed four people
at a megachurch and a missionary training school had been thrown out of
the school about three years ago and had been sending hate mail to the
program, police said in court papers Monday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings
I stand corrected on that point.
But the larger point remains: Atheism has no ground to stand on if it
tries to justify itself as a doctrine of unquestionable Peace.
Cite?
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2007-12-11 03:40:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archie Leach
I stand corrected on that point.
But the larger point remains: Atheism has no ground to stand on if it
tries to justify itself as a doctrine of unquestionable Peace.
Cite?
was the ussr - prc border a place of peace or tension?
we had two officially atheist governments side by side
and therefore they could have no religious axe to grind
no religious extremist beyond the border to defend themselves against

was this love and peace and flowers and joy?

what do you say about someone who sticks to their dogma
when it is provably wrong?

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
percy
2007-12-11 04:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Archie Leach
I stand corrected on that point.
But the larger point remains: Atheism has no ground to stand on if it
tries to justify itself as a doctrine of unquestionable Peace.
Cite?
was the ussr - prc border a place of peace or tension?
we had two officially atheist governments side by side
and therefore they could have no religious axe to grind
no religious extremist beyond the border to defend themselves against
was this love and peace and flowers and joy?
what do you say about someone who sticks to their dogma
when it is provably wrong?
We call them andy chung.
Dubh Ghall
2007-12-11 08:53:17 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:40:24 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
what do you say about someone who sticks to their dogma
when it is provably wrong?
We say, "Fanatic", be their dogma, religious, or political.
Robert
2007-12-11 03:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archie Leach
Post by LC
Post by Archie Leach
Besides, it appears the Colorado church shooter was an
atheist--insofar as he had an obsessive hatred toward Christians.
Uh, no,
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The gunman believed to have killed four people at
a megachurch and a missionary training school had been thrown out of the
school about three years ago and had been sending hate mail to the program,
police said in court papers Monday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings
I stand corrected on that point.
But the larger point remains: Atheism has no ground to stand on if it
tries to justify itself as a doctrine of unquestionable Peace.
Nor has it. Christianity claims to be a religion of peace, atheist
point out that Christianity has been very active in supporting wars
often both side of the conflict for man centuries. Atheism is simply a
lack of any beliefs in any God/s. Active atheist resist attempts by
religion to force other to live according to the immorality of that
religion.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2007-12-11 03:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
often both side of the conflict for man centuries. Atheism is simply a
lack of any beliefs in any God/s. Active atheist resist attempts by
religion to force other to live according to the immorality of that
religion.
okay

so then why do they have best body counts of the twentieth century?
is that a new kind of morality?

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Dubh Ghall
2007-12-11 08:54:52 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:41:44 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Robert
often both side of the conflict for man centuries. Atheism is simply a
lack of any beliefs in any God/s. Active atheist resist attempts by
religion to force other to live according to the immorality of that
religion.
okay
so then why do they have best body counts of the twentieth century?
is that a new kind of morality?
More people to kill, and better tools to kill with.

You xtians are only jealous.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2007-12-11 09:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dubh Ghall
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:41:44 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Robert
often both side of the conflict for man centuries. Atheism is simply a
lack of any beliefs in any God/s. Active atheist resist attempts by
religion to force other to live according to the immorality of that
religion.
okay
so then why do they have best body counts of the twentieth century?
is that a new kind of morality?
More people to kill, and better tools to kill with.
You xtians are only jealous.
do we get proxy points for pitting israel against arabs?

i wager 42 quatloos on hamas

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Dubh Ghall
2007-12-11 21:35:14 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:10:38 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Dubh Ghall
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:41:44 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Robert
often both side of the conflict for man centuries. Atheism is simply a
lack of any beliefs in any God/s. Active atheist resist attempts by
religion to force other to live according to the immorality of that
religion.
okay
so then why do they have best body counts of the twentieth century?
is that a new kind of morality?
More people to kill, and better tools to kill with.
You xtians are only jealous.
do we get proxy points for pitting israel against arabs?
Only if you have got the right loyalty cards.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2007-12-12 03:26:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dubh Ghall
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:10:38 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Dubh Ghall
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:41:44 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Robert
often both side of the conflict for man centuries. Atheism is simply a
lack of any beliefs in any God/s. Active atheist resist attempts by
religion to force other to live according to the immorality of that
religion.
okay
so then why do they have best body counts of the twentieth century?
is that a new kind of morality?
More people to kill, and better tools to kill with.
You xtians are only jealous.
do we get proxy points for pitting israel against arabs?
Only if you have got the right loyalty cards.
you mean a discount card from the local market?

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Dubh Ghall
2007-12-12 18:59:04 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:26:10 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Dubh Ghall
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:10:38 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Dubh Ghall
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:41:44 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Robert
often both side of the conflict for man centuries. Atheism is simply a
lack of any beliefs in any God/s. Active atheist resist attempts by
religion to force other to live according to the immorality of that
religion.
okay
so then why do they have best body counts of the twentieth century?
is that a new kind of morality?
More people to kill, and better tools to kill with.
You xtians are only jealous.
do we get proxy points for pitting israel against arabs?
Only if you have got the right loyalty cards.
you mean a discount card from the local market?
Something like that.
Dubh Ghall
2007-12-11 08:49:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archie Leach
Atheism has no ground to stand on if it
tries to justify itself as a doctrine of unquestionable Peace.
But atheism isn't a doctrine of anything.

That atheism is a doctrine, is a fiction which, together with their
god/s, resides only in the heads of religious fanatics.
Savageduck
2007-12-12 07:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archie Leach
Post by LC
Post by Archie Leach
Besides, it appears the Colorado church shooter was an
atheist--insofar as he had an obsessive hatred toward Christians.
Uh, no,
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The gunman believed to have killed four people at
a megachurch and a missionary training school had been thrown out of the
school about three years ago and had been sending hate mail to the program,
police said in court papers Monday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings
I stand corrected on that point.
But the larger point remains: Atheism has no ground to stand on if it
tries to justify itself as a doctrine of unquestionable Peace.
There's an atheist doctrine of peace?

The only assertion atheists make with regard to peace, is religions
have done nothing to promote peace.
So the Lennonism "Imagine no religion" could certainly be deemed an
idealistic anthem of any peace movement as it would be one less reason
to kill each other.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2007-12-12 08:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Savageduck
Post by Archie Leach
Post by LC
Post by Archie Leach
Besides, it appears the Colorado church shooter was an
atheist--insofar as he had an obsessive hatred toward Christians.
Uh, no,
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The gunman believed to have killed four people at
a megachurch and a missionary training school had been thrown out of the
school about three years ago and had been sending hate mail to the program,
police said in court papers Monday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings
I stand corrected on that point.
But the larger point remains: Atheism has no ground to stand on if it
tries to justify itself as a doctrine of unquestionable Peace.
There's an atheist doctrine of peace?
The only assertion atheists make with regard to peace, is religions
have done nothing to promote peace.
not really
the claim is that religion create war
leaving the implication that no religion create peace

whiny little shits rarely actually say that
because they know how easy it is too shoot down
but that what they want people to believe

reality is that noether religion nor nonreligion creates war
humans create war
and humans could choose to not create war anymore
Post by Savageduck
So the Lennonism "Imagine no religion" could certainly be deemed an
idealistic anthem of any peace movement as it would be one less reason
to kill each other.
its diversionay bullshit that obscures the issues
made up by a songwriter with delusions of enlightment pursuing his own agenda

greed is the reason for war
religion is merely one of many triggers
to get young men to throw their lives to further enrich the wealthy

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Savageduck
2007-12-12 08:35:56 UTC
Permalink
On 2007-12-12 00:15:24 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten
Post by Archie Leach
Post by Savageduck
Post by Archie Leach
Post by LC
Post by Archie Leach
Besides, it appears the Colorado church shooter was an
atheist--insofar as he had an obsessive hatred toward Christians.
Uh, no,
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The gunman believed to have killed four people at
a megachurch and a missionary training school had been thrown out of the
school about three years ago and had been sending hate mail to the program,
police said in court papers Monday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings
I stand corrected on that point.
But the larger point remains: Atheism has no ground to stand on if it
tries to justify itself as a doctrine of unquestionable Peace.
There's an atheist doctrine of peace?
The only assertion atheists make with regard to peace, is religions
have done nothing to promote peace.
not really
the claim is that religion create war
No, the fact is millions have died because of religions and not all the
killing was done under the guise of war.
Post by Archie Leach
leaving the implication that no religion create peace
No, it is an issue of power and control. The great majority of
religions and sects within individual religions cannot tolerate
competition, so the not believers are persecuted and eliminated.
Post by Archie Leach
whiny little shits rarely actually say that
because they know how easy it is too shoot down
but that what they want people to believe
reality is that noether religion nor nonreligion creates war
humans create war
True.
Post by Archie Leach
and humans could choose to not create war anymore
True.
Post by Archie Leach
Post by Savageduck
So the Lennonism "Imagine no religion" could certainly be deemed an
idealistic anthem of any peace movement as it would be one less reason
to kill each other.
its diversionay bullshit that obscures the issues
made up by a songwriter with delusions of enlightment pursuing his own agenda
OK the source is questionable. Actually it is sentimental pap, but a
valid proposal to remove one cause of sectarian killing nonetheless.
Post by Archie Leach
greed is the reason for war
No. It is power and the territorial imperative.
Post by Archie Leach
religion is merely one of many triggers
Yup, just one of them.
Post by Archie Leach
to get young men to throw their lives to further enrich the wealthy
and power hungry.
Post by Archie Leach
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Well that is obvious.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2007-12-12 09:04:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Savageduck
Post by Archie Leach
Post by Savageduck
There's an atheist doctrine of peace?
The only assertion atheists make with regard to peace, is religions
have done nothing to promote peace.
not really
the claim is that religion create war
No, the fact is millions have died because of religions and not all the
killing was done under the guise of war.
hey turkey
i thought the only assertion atheist make is the religion does promote peace
Post by Savageduck
Post by Archie Leach
leaving the implication that no religion create peace
No, it is an issue of power and control. The great majority of
except of course you need to talk about millions who have died

youre talking about both sides of your mouth
youre attacking religion
and pretending to be concillatory

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Dubh Ghall
2007-12-12 19:37:18 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:04:35 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
i thought the only assertion atheist make is the religion does promote peace
No atheist has ever claimed that any religion promotes peace.
Savageduck
2007-12-13 03:23:13 UTC
Permalink
On 2007-12-12 01:04:35 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Savageduck
Post by Archie Leach
Post by Savageduck
There's an atheist doctrine of peace?
The only assertion atheists make with regard to peace, is religions
have done nothing to promote peace.
not really
the claim is that religion create war
No, the fact is millions have died because of religions and not all the
killing was done under the guise of war.
hey turkey
No, no , no, it's 'duck, Savageduck.
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
i thought the only assertion atheist make is the religion does promote peace
No atheist I know has ever asserted or conceded that religion promotes
peace. This is something you seem to have sucked out of thin air.
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Savageduck
Post by Archie Leach
leaving the implication that no religion create peace
No, it is an issue of power and control. The great majority of
If you are going to respond, include the entire paragraph you are
responding to so context is maintained. I gather you were attempting to
respond to this;

No, it is an issue of power and control. The great majority of
religions and sects within individual religions cannot tolerate
competition, so the non believers are persecuted and eliminated.
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
except of course you need to talk about millions who have died
Here I am sure you are referring to the millions who have died for and
because of religions.
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
youre talking about both sides of your mouth
youre attacking religion
and pretending to be concillatory
Wrong again. I must have misled you, I am certainly attacking religion,
however I am unsure of what you interpret as conciliatory.
I had one moment of agreement with you when you made the following remark;

"reality is that noether religion nor nonreligion creates war
humans create war
and humans could choose to not create war anymore"

and I agreed, "humans create war and humans could choose to not create
war anymore" by saying true.

I also agreed that religion was but one cause of war. However, If you
recall, what I wrote was; "No, the fact is millions have died because
of religions and not all the killing was done under the guise of war."
What I probably should have written was, religion (note I am not
singling out the church here, I am including it in this diverse group
of self righteous faithful) does not need war as a means to kill
millions, it does a very efficient job using other methods, ranging
from torture,ritual sacrifice, religion sanctioned executions,
systematic starvation and genocide, as well as war.

Now once more let's cut to the chase and say millions have died as a
result of religions of all types, all led by mythological deities and
power hungry clergy. Hence, "Imagine no religion."
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
I also agreed with your above statement in which you cited your
intellectual credentials.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2007-12-13 03:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Savageduck
Here I am sure you are referring to the millions who have died for and
because of religions.
i will refer to the millions who have died for and because of atheism
Post by Savageduck
Wrong again. I must have misled you, I am certainly attacking religion,
not really
youre attacking other peoples religion
getting rid of the competition
so everyone has to come into you church

bible thumpers are the same
all that changes is the name of the bible
Post by Savageduck
I also agreed that religion was but one cause of war. However, If you
-however-
thats always how people begin rationalizing their version of evil
Post by Savageduck
of self righteous faithful) does not need war as a means to kill
millions, it does a very efficient job using other methods, ranging
and atheism given the chance is equally efficient at ending human life
Post by Savageduck
Now once more let's cut to the chase and say millions have died as a
result of religions of all types, all led by mythological deities and
power hungry clergy. Hence, "Imagine no religion."
imagine the cultural revolution

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Savageduck
2007-12-13 05:40:14 UTC
Permalink
On 2007-12-12 19:59:31 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Savageduck
Here I am sure you are referring to the millions who have died for and
because of religions.
i will refer to the millions who have died for and because of atheism
CITE. I suppose it is those dirty rotten commies.
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Savageduck
Wrong again. I must have misled you, I am certainly attacking religion,
not really
youre attacking other peoples religion
getting rid of the competition
so everyone has to come into you church
bible thumpers are the same
all that changes is the name of the bible
You must have a real problem with comprehension. I AM AN ATHEIST!

You always insist on editing paragraphs so the context is not kept, so
I will fix your edit where needed.
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Savageduck
I also agreed that religion was but one cause of war. However, If you
recall, what I wrote was; "No, the fact is millions have died because
of religions and not all the killing was done under the guise of war."
-however-
thats always how people begin rationalizing their version of evil
Time to bring out an appropriate quote:
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good
people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for
good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg

Again what you have omitted has been added to maintain context.
What I probably should have written was, religion (note I am not
singling out the church here, I am including it in this diverse group
of self righteous faithful) does not need war as a means to kill
millions, it does a very efficient job using other methods, ranging
from torture,ritual sacrifice, religion sanctioned executions,
systematic starvation and genocide, as well as war.
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
and atheism given the chance is equally efficient at ending human life
Yes atheists are perfectly capable of killing, however that killing has
never been done in the name of atheism. The normal argument at this
point is all those atheist commie killers such as Stalin and Mao.
Remember Old Joe was seminary educated and knew the power of the "Cult
of Personality" as did Mao. they used the old terror tools of religion
to do their bidding. Then there is the other example that comes up from
time to time is the Khymer Rouge, these killers did so religiously in
the name of "Angka" which had no personality, it was only in 1977 when
Saloth Sar came out from behind the "Angka" mask with his nom de
guerre, Pol Pot. All religion in a different guise.
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Savageduck
Now once more let's cut to the chase and say millions have died as a
result of religions of all types, all led by mythological deities and
power hungry clergy. Hence, "Imagine no religion."
imagine the cultural revolution
Thought provoking isn't it?
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2007-12-13 08:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Savageduck
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
i will refer to the millions who have died for and because of atheism
CITE. I suppose it is those dirty rotten commies.
they said it was in the name atheism
the letters have been cited
search google or loc
Post by Savageduck
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
bible thumpers are the same
all that changes is the name of the bible
You must have a real problem with comprehension. I AM AN ATHEIST!
given how many of the pagan right are atheists
thats really not an impediment to whipping up your congregation
into a proper frenzy
Post by Savageduck
You always insist on editing paragraphs so the context is not kept, so
sorry to disappoint buttwipe but i dont alter a single word
as for what i delete
-my- newsreader gets all reference with one menu click
if unison is such pathetic reader that it cannot do that
thats your problem for choosing your sofrware
Post by Savageduck
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good
people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for
good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg
Weinberg has cancelled trips to universites in the United Kingdom because of
British boycotts directed towards Israel. He has explained:
"Given the history of the attacks on Israel and the oppressiveness and
aggressiveness of other countries in the Middle East and elsewhere, boycotting
Israel indicated a moral blindness for which it is hard to find any explanation
other than antisemitism.

Despite his support of a nation-state that justifies its existance as the will
of a creator god, he expressed the following view on religion in a speech from
1999 in Washington, D.C.:
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people
doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do
evil things, that takes religion."

in other words stevie is a hypocrite

that an old trick to claim -any- criticism whatsoever of israel is antisemitic
thereby releasing israel from any normal standards of human conduct
and expectation of obeying the international declaration of human rights

no wonder youre willing to quote a craven moral relativist hypoctire
Post by Savageduck
Yes atheists are perfectly capable of killing, however that killing has
never been done in the name of atheism. The normal argument at this
wrong buttwipe

the letters by beria et al have been cited in the past
im not going to track them down in loc for a fourth time
just because you like to tell obvious lies
Post by Savageduck
Remember Old Joe was seminary educated and knew the power of the "Cult
heard this tune before
he renounced faith and expressly attacked the russian orthodox church
but stalin was a seminary student you will now claim its all the churchs fault

basically youre applying two different standards like all good little hypocrites
if a christian does something in the name of christianity
then christianity is to blame
if an atheist does something in the name of atheism
then atheism is blameless

youre the same kind of whiny moral relativist as your bigot hero weinberg
Post by Savageduck
guerre, Pol Pot. All religion in a different guise.
so basically you have defined anything evil is religion
from which you conclude anything evil is religion

this is the fallacy of assuming the consequent
but i dont expect a religious bigot like you to understand logic
Post by Savageduck
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Savageduck
Now once more let's cut to the chase and say millions have died as a
result of religions of all types, all led by mythological deities and
power hungry clergy. Hence, "Imagine no religion."
imagine the cultural revolution
Thought provoking isn't it?
id rather imagine the first amendment

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

Charlie Wilkes
2007-12-12 11:25:19 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:15:24 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
greed is the reason for war
religion is merely one of many triggers to get young men to throw their
lives to further enrich the wealthy
You over-simplify greatly.

Religion is not the cause of human aggression, but it is an indispensable
tool for those who channel human aggression to serve their ends. The
Arabs could not get people to blow themselves up in suicide attacks
without religious inducements and prolonged exposure to religious
propaganda. The Thirty Years' War could not have achieved such a pitch
of annihilating frenzy without religious fervor.

If you listen to Christian leaders in the U.S. today, they spend far more
time ranting about their social control agenda than they do about the
need for a personal relationship with Christ. Christian doctrine is an
effective means of controlling vulnerable people, so it naturally
attracts control freaks who recognize that. The Ku Klux Klan, white
supremacist movements, and Jim Jones' Guyana death cult all share a
professed allegiance to the Christian religion.

People are entitled to believe whatever they want... God, Santa Claus,
the Tooth Fairy. But organized religion is a tool of aggression, capable
of turning ordinary people into psychopaths with no concern for the
suffering they cause.

Charlie
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2007-12-12 11:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Wilkes
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:15:24 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
greed is the reason for war
religion is merely one of many triggers to get young men to throw their
lives to further enrich the wealthy
You over-simplify greatly.
Religion is not the cause of human aggression, but it is an indispensable
then deal with the causes or you just replace one tool for another
dance around the problem and never solve it
Post by Charlie Wilkes
propaganda. The Thirty Years' War could not have achieved such a pitch
of annihilating frenzy without religious fervor.
bullshit
khmer rouge managed to get a good killing frenzy as happy peaceful atheists

like other assholes with agenda your focusing on irrelevancies
to acheive political ends that profit you

youre part of the problem not the solution
Post by Charlie Wilkes
If you listen to Christian leaders in the U.S. today, they spend far more
i dont listen to those pagans
Post by Charlie Wilkes
People are entitled to believe whatever they want... God, Santa Claus,
the Tooth Fairy. But organized religion is a tool of aggression, capable
organized atheism is also a tool of aggression
so get rid of religion and atheism and what do you have left?

youre not interested in solving the problem
youre just interested in getting your own beliefs enshrined as a state religion
Post by Charlie Wilkes
of turning ordinary people into psychopaths with no concern for the
suffering they cause.
how many christians in the cultural revolution?

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Charlie Wilkes
2007-12-12 12:42:03 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 03:56:21 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten
Post by Charlie Wilkes
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:15:24 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
greed is the reason for war
religion is merely one of many triggers to get young men to throw
their lives to further enrich the wealthy
You over-simplify greatly.
Religion is not the cause of human aggression, but it is an
indispensable
then deal with the causes or you just replace one tool for another dance
around the problem and never solve it
Post by Charlie Wilkes
propaganda. The Thirty Years' War could not have achieved such a pitch
of annihilating frenzy without religious fervor.
bullshit
khmer rouge managed to get a good killing frenzy as happy peaceful atheists
like other assholes with agenda your focusing on irrelevancies to
acheive political ends that profit you
??? What ends might those be? Be specific so I'll know how and where I
can collect my profits.
youre part of the problem not the solution
Post by Charlie Wilkes
If you listen to Christian leaders in the U.S. today, they spend far more
i dont listen to those pagans
Post by Charlie Wilkes
People are entitled to believe whatever they want... God, Santa Claus,
the Tooth Fairy. But organized religion is a tool of aggression, capable
organized atheism is also a tool of aggression so get rid of religion
and atheism and what do you have left?
youre not interested in solving the problem youre just interested in
getting your own beliefs enshrined as a state religion
Nah. I am not involved in political activities. I'm purely interested
in discussion. I have been following this and similar threads for some
time. You're getting away with too much bullshit, and I finally decided
to step in and do something about it. That's my only agenda.
Post by Charlie Wilkes
of turning ordinary people into psychopaths with no concern for the
suffering they cause.
how many christians in the cultural revolution?
What difference does it make? I am not so foolish as to say that all war
and political aggression is done in the name of religion. I'm simply
pointing out that religion is an excellent tool for those who seek to
control people and channel their aggressive tendencies. And of course it
serves other less malignant purposes as well... charity bake sales, pray-
ins for people whose children have been found dead and mutilated at the
bottom of a ravine, all kinds of feel-good civics.

Charlie
Dubh Ghall
2007-12-12 19:35:05 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:15:24 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Archie Leach
Post by Savageduck
Post by Archie Leach
Post by LC
Post by Archie Leach
Besides, it appears the Colorado church shooter was an
atheist--insofar as he had an obsessive hatred toward Christians.
Uh, no,
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The gunman believed to have killed four people at
a megachurch and a missionary training school had been thrown out of the
school about three years ago and had been sending hate mail to the program,
police said in court papers Monday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings
I stand corrected on that point.
But the larger point remains: Atheism has no ground to stand on if it
tries to justify itself as a doctrine of unquestionable Peace.
There's an atheist doctrine of peace?
The only assertion atheists make with regard to peace, is religions
have done nothing to promote peace.
not really
the claim is that religion create war
Some make that claim, others do not.
Post by Archie Leach
leaving the implication that no religion create peace
History supports that conclusion.
Post by Archie Leach
whiny little shits
I wondered when you would try an intellectual approach
Clearly, you are not going to.
Post by Archie Leach
rarely actually say that
because they know how easy it is too shoot down
but that what they want people to believe
reality is that noether religion nor nonreligion creates war
humans create war
Puerile semantics.
Post by Archie Leach
and humans could choose to not create war anymore
Unless they think their gods are telling them differently.
Post by Archie Leach
Post by Savageduck
So the Lennonism "Imagine no religion" could certainly be deemed an
idealistic anthem of any peace movement as it would be one less reason
to kill each other.
snip remaining tripe.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2007-12-12 23:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dubh Ghall
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
leaving the implication that no religion create peace
History supports that conclusion.
now thats funny

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Dubh Ghall
2007-12-12 19:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Savageduck
Post by Archie Leach
But the larger point remains: Atheism has no ground to stand on if it
tries to justify itself as a doctrine of unquestionable Peace.
There's an atheist doctrine of peace?
Over the years, there has been, according to these theist fanatics, an
atheist doctrine, of almost every political, social, philosophical,
charitable, etc, etc, stance that you can imagine.

So far, no documentary evidence has been forth coming.

That is, other than a few private opinions, voiced by a few
individuals.
Bill M
2007-12-10 19:11:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archie Leach
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Bob Officer
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:07:03 -0500, in alt.abortion, "J Young"
This is an absolute disgrace. If people wish to hold atheist beliefs, they
should learn to keep it to themselves. No one should invoke their values
upon others.
The highest form of hypocrisy known to man. J. Young
on the other hand the sign is wrong
and to piss people off just piss people off
is not the brightest poltical move for a minority
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
<rant>
Some atheists (the CVA certainly included) conveniently forget about
the USSR and China (and hell let's throw Pol Pot and Cambodia into the
mix) when spouting about the supposed relative peacefulness of
"atheism".
Communism/Marxism is by definition atheistic. You cannot seperate
atheism from Marxism.
Communism is a political system. It neither requires or is based on non
beleif in gods.
Post by Archie Leach
Hey, if you want to make a philosophical stand that God does not
exist, then go ahead.
If you want to declare that Jesus Christ never existed and was a myth,
then I don't agree with that but it's not really my business.
Of course it is a myth! Where have you, are any other sane person, seen or
heard from Jesus???
Post by Archie Leach
Besides, Christianity has those who would make Jesus a myth--see the
Episcopal Bishop Spong.
If you want to claim that theism is strictly responsible for tragedies
and murders and mayhem and that atheism is the doctrine of ultimate
peace, then you are FULL. OF. SHIT.
Both atheists and theists have caused tragedies. Neither is inherently
tragic.
Post by Archie Leach
Plain and simple.
Besides, it appears the Colorado church shooter was an
atheist--insofar as he had an obsessive hatred toward Christians.
</rant>
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2007-12-11 03:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill M
Post by Archie Leach
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Bob Officer
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:07:03 -0500, in alt.abortion, "J Young"
This is an absolute disgrace. If people wish to hold atheist beliefs, they
should learn to keep it to themselves. No one should invoke their values
upon others.
The highest form of hypocrisy known to man. J. Young
on the other hand the sign is wrong
and to piss people off just piss people off
is not the brightest poltical move for a minority
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
<rant>
Some atheists (the CVA certainly included) conveniently forget about
the USSR and China (and hell let's throw Pol Pot and Cambodia into the
mix) when spouting about the supposed relative peacefulness of
"atheism".
Communism/Marxism is by definition atheistic. You cannot seperate
atheism from Marxism.
Communism is a political system. It neither requires or is based on non
beleif in gods.
Post by Archie Leach
Hey, if you want to make a philosophical stand that God does not
exist, then go ahead.
If you want to declare that Jesus Christ never existed and was a myth,
then I don't agree with that but it's not really my business.
Of course it is a myth! Where have you, are any other sane person, seen or
heard from Jesus???
Post by Archie Leach
Besides, Christianity has those who would make Jesus a myth--see the
Episcopal Bishop Spong.
If you want to claim that theism is strictly responsible for tragedies
and murders and mayhem and that atheism is the doctrine of ultimate
peace, then you are FULL. OF. SHIT.
Both atheists and theists have caused tragedies. Neither is inherently
tragic.
the text on the sign implies that a world without religion
is a world without war
this is

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
MarkA
2007-12-11 03:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archie Leach
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Post by Bob Officer
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:07:03 -0500, in alt.abortion, "J Young"
This is an absolute disgrace. If people wish to hold atheist beliefs, they
should learn to keep it to themselves. No one should invoke their values
upon others.
The highest form of hypocrisy known to man. J. Young
on the other hand the sign is wrong
and to piss people off just piss people off
is not the brightest poltical move for a minority
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
<rant>
Some atheists (the CVA certainly included) conveniently forget about
the USSR and China (and hell let's throw Pol Pot and Cambodia into the
mix) when spouting about the supposed relative peacefulness of
"atheism".
Communism/Marxism is by definition atheistic. You cannot seperate
atheism from Marxism.
Hey, if you want to make a philosophical stand that God does not
exist, then go ahead.
Yep. Stalin killed millions of his own people on a crusade to promote
rational thinking/secular humanism. You got us there.
Post by Archie Leach
If you want to declare that Jesus Christ never existed and was a myth,
then I don't agree with that but it's not really my business.
Besides, Christianity has those who would make Jesus a myth--see the
Episcopal Bishop Spong.
If you want to claim that theism is strictly responsible for tragedies
and murders and mayhem and that atheism is the doctrine of ultimate
peace, then you are FULL. OF. SHIT.
Plain and simple.
Besides, it appears the Colorado church shooter was an
atheist--insofar as he had an obsessive hatred toward Christians.
You need to get a new dictionary. An atheist is NOT defined by "obsessive
hatred toward Christians."
Post by Archie Leach
</rant>
--
MarkA
(This space accidentally filled in)
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...